STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Jamie Dimon, the head of JPMorgan Chase, recently turned 70. When asked what he's learned that he wishes his younger self had known, Dimon named two things to avoid.
JAMIE DIMON: Anger doesn't help, OK? Like, making big decisions on a Friday when you're tired is a really bad idea.
INSKEEP: (Laughter).
DIMON: I always call them lessons learned and relearned. Steve, I still make some of those mistakes, unfortunately.
INSKEEP: Fortunately, this was a Monday, and Dimon seemed to be in a good mood. He was talking on camera for the NPR video program Newsmakers. The occasion was his annual letter to shareholders, when the head of the nation's biggest bank gives opinions on the world of finance and far beyond. Dimon asserts that his company has a role to play in improving society.
DIMON: We shouldn't - I'm not saying the government can't do it. We shouldn't rely on government alone. Collaboration works.
INSKEEP: Do you assume that the interests of the country are about the same as the interests of your company?
DIMON: No, but I think that we have common interests.
INSKEEP: And he spoke with us about a range of issues, including the war in Iran. Dimon labels it a leading risk to the economy, yet also says the war has a purpose.
DIMON: You know, people talk about being an imminent threat. It's not a threat. They've been killing and murdering innocent people, including innocent Americans, you know, for 47 years. And I know it causes other problems in society and - you know, the cost of fuel, the cost of oil. I completely understand that. I'm quite sympathetic to that. But this is a really important subject that has to be properly dealt with eventually.
INSKEEP: What are the economic risks, which is your area of expertise, of the potential destruction of this war? As we're talking, the president has just had a press conference and talked about destroying Iranian power plants. The Iranians have talked about destroying infrastructure in response.
DIMON: Yeah.
INSKEEP: The economic blast radius could even be bigger than it has been.
DIMON: Yeah, no. So again, I'm separating morality from - you're talking about economics. I think the morality may be more important than - free and safe world may be more important, and that's hard to understand. But economically, you know, there's tons of uncertainty, and I list, like, tons of them out there.
INSKEEP: Yeah.
DIMON: Not just these wars, but obviously, they can cause some form of recession. I'm not even saying it's going to happen. I just think it increases the odds of bad economic outcomes. And we should just be clear-eyed about that.
INSKEEP: There's a thing that's happening in real time that's particularly interesting and that relates to the financial markets. The president regularly has made statements about this war and other issues that have moved the markets. Now, that's normal. You've been around a long time. Every president moves the markets. But they've been quite sudden, quite frequent, quite dramatic, and sometimes there is news suggesting that someone profited in the moments when that happened. What do you think about when you watch that?
DIMON: I - look, I have to deal with the world I got, so I don't spend that much time worrying about it. I think if people are profiting, that's bad. I think, you know, when the president changes his mind, I don't think it's always a bad thing. You know, he wants to do X. Doesn't work that well. He tries something different. That's OK. So I don't look at that as a terrible thing. Some of that causes a confusion. And in fact, it's a great lesson for those who look at the market. Like, you can see that words of a president matter. And, you know, presidents are careful. This president's less careful. He's also willing to stand up there, take questions and change his mind.
INSKEEP: What do you think about people who are either profiting in those moments or frantically buying and selling based on whatever the president just said?
DIMON: I don't know. I - for us, any insider information that you trade on, whether you trade in securities...
INSKEEP: Yeah.
DIMON: ...Or you trade in prediction markets, we told our people that is against the law. It's certainly against JPMorgan policy. You know, people who just speculate on this stuff, that's different. That's just some form of gambling, and I defend your right to gamble.
INSKEEP: Jamie Dimon is a New York banker, although we found him at a JPMorgan office in Washington, D.C. He is a regular visitor to the capital. His business is highly regulated, and it touches almost any other business that national leaders care about. He is, of course, watching tech firms borrow hundreds of billions of dollars for artificial intelligence data centers. Dimon takes an essentially optimistic view that AI might cure cancer or add to auto safety. Rather than eliminate jobs, he hopes it might shorten the work week.
DIMON: If - and I'm saying if - this changes jobs too much, here's what we all should do - we in government, business and government. Relocate income assistance, early retirement. Maybe reduce the work week a little bit, you know, not mandate it. You know, let the system work. The system will adjust eventually. I just think if you look at the history of, you know, developed nations, we went from working 6 1/2 days a week to six days a week to 5 1/2 days a week to five days a week to 12 hours a day, 10 hours a day to eight hours a day. I do think that there's a good chance it'll be 3 1/2 days a week. In many years, they'll be living wonderful lives.
INSKEEP: What do you think about when somebody says on NPR, as they did the other day, one of the risks here, one of the goals here is to replace almost everybody's job?
DIMON: Well, I don't like that. I don't think that's going to happen, and there are a lot of jobs that are not replaceable. And they really question if it goes too fast to have the adjustment we had in prior large technological advances. That's the real question. And we're starting to really think about what society should do to deal with that if it happens.
INSKEEP: You also say cities need to compete.
DIMON: Yeah.
INSKEEP: And you've said this before, but what is distinct here is that you name exactly one city.
DIMON: Yeah.
INSKEEP: It's your hometown, New York City.
DIMON: Yeah.
INSKEEP: And you talk about their high tax rates. What, if anything, is your message to your mayor...
DIMON: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...Zohran Mamdani?
DIMON: Yeah. It wasn't meant just for him. It was answering a question I get asked by a lot of people. Individuals compete. Cities compete. Companies compete. Countries compete. That is not me guessing. That is the truth. New York City's got some wonderful - and if I was a - any mayor, I'd make a list of strengths and weaknesses. You know, it's got arts. It's got Broadway. It's got restaurants. It's got - you know, it's a melting pot. It's got brains. It's got financial. It's got media - all great. It also has the highest individual rates, the highest corporate rates, the highest estate tax rates. And that tends to drive people out if you want to be competitive. So it's - people vote with their feet. That's not a moral statement. That's an actual - what's actually happening and why is it happening.
INSKEEP: You also point out that you now as a company have more employees in Texas than in New York.
DIMON: Yeah. But...
INSKEEP: Why?
DIMON: Because they're hugely hospitable. It's conducive to business. The mayor calls you up. You need a big plot of land. They'll change the bus lanes for you. They do a whole bunch of things. And I think their tax rates are very low, both corporate and individual. So people want to work there.
INSKEEP: I'm thinking as you're talking of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez...
DIMON: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...Your fellow New Yorker...
DIMON: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...Who has been on NPR. It was last year. And she said a lot of people feel increasingly that everything is a scam, that they're being ripped off. What would you say to people who think that the people you deal with, people in your class, the very successful, wealthy people in this country, have lost sight of the national interest, are not taking care of the country?
DIMON: Yeah. I think that's a - kind of a broad statement. And we think (ph)...
INSKEEP: It's a broad statement, but it's made in both parties in different ways. Yeah.
DIMON: Well, I think there are people who don't care. I mean, there are people who don't care who are not wealthy and people who don't care who are wealthy. I personally don't like those kind of people. So, you know, I don't think that proportion is that different than it was 10 years ago or 40 years ago, 80 years ago.
INSKEEP: Dimon argued that the problem is not capitalism but bad policy. He began talking of the high cost of housing and made the case for different regulations.
DIMON: And I would agree with AOC. I hope she can help me on this. If we fix those regulations, mortgages would be a lot more affordable for a $200,000 home. If we fix some of the affordable housing stuff and you could build more affordable homes, you'd create a lot more homes - starter homes. The people who would buy those homes would be able to get a mortgage, and they'd be leaving rental units, you know, which would reduce the price of rental for the people who need the rental. So there are so many things we can do to make this country better, faster, healthier and help everybody.
INSKEEP: Jamie Dimon, it's a pleasure talking with you again. Thank you so much.
DIMON: Thank you. Pleasure is mine.
INSKEEP: Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase. He spoke on the NPR video program Newsmakers, and you can see it on the NPR app and YouTube.
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