DON GONYEA, HOST:
Deadly attacks by Russian drones killed dozens in Ukraine's capital, Kyiv, earlier this week. The Russian government says those attacks are in response to an increased number of Ukrainian deep strikes, drone missions that have penetrated far into Russian airspace to attack Russian targets far from the front line of the war. All of these attacks and counterattacks come at a time when internal pressure on Moscow has never been higher. Every day, Russians face gasoline shortages and worsening economic conditions.
For more on what these strikes mean and what they tell us about the current state of the conflict, we're joined now by Daniel Fried. He's the former U.S. ambassador to Poland and is now a distinguished fellow at the Atlantic Council. Ambassador, welcome.
DANIEL FRIED: Thanks for having me.
GONYEA: Your first reaction to these latest Russian strikes on Kyiv and across Ukraine broadly.
FRIED: The Russians are trying to terrorize Ukraine by hitting civilian targets. The Ukrainians are going after Russian military targets and economic infrastructure, particularly the oil infrastructure, and they're trying to isolate Crimea. So they're not the same. The Russians are engaged in killing civilians. The Ukrainians are fighting a war of survival.
GONYEA: You told the Kyiv Post - that's an English-language news outlet in Ukraine - that, quote, "Russia is beginning to lose" this war. Why do you say that?
FRIED: First, if Russia doesn't win, it loses. That is, they bet a lot on being able to conquer Ukraine, to subjugate it completely. They have failed. Secondly, the Ukrainians are now making the Russians hurt, and the Russian people are beginning to notice that. So I'm not saying the Russians are about to collapse or the Ukrainians are about to drive them out of Ukraine and liberate their country.
But yeah, Russia is beginning to lose, and the strategic advantage is beginning to shift to Ukraine, which is astonishing considering the almost universal predictions of inevitable Russian victory and the size of the country. But as it turns out, wars of aggression don't always pan out the way the aggressor hopes.
GONYEA: You argued in a recent essay for the Atlantic Council that supporting Ukraine in the war is the ultimate test of American values. Explain your thinking there.
FRIED: I think it is. The Ukrainians are fighting for the values of what we used to call the free world, the values that America - for over 100 years and especially since 1945 - have championed. And this isn't clueless idealism. It is a canny American appreciation that U.S. interests advance along with U.S. values. The values of a free world have been very good for America. And Ukraine is fighting for those same things.
The issues in the Ukraine war are the same issues we dealt with during World War II and the Cold War. That is, we oppose the effort of an aggressive dictatorship to dominate Europe or part of Europe through force and fear. That was a wise investment. That issue is being played out in the Russo-Ukraine war right now.
I'm not talking about U.S. troops direct involved in the war. I'm talking about the American interest in helping Ukrainians defend themselves against Russian aggression. Ukraine's success will help the United States all over the world, certainly Taiwan and in the Middle East. It will show that the Russian and Chinese narrative of American decline is wrong, that it pays to be America's friend. And if the Trump administration leans forward, uses the leverage at its disposal to put more pressure on Russia, this war can end well for the Ukrainians, well for the free world and well for the United States.
GONYEA: If America does not live up to that test that you describe, what is lost?
FRIED: The Ukrainians might prevail anyway. The question is, do we want to be seen as the country that delivered success for the free world or a country that stood by while others did? Now, the Trump administration has a perfectly valid argument that Europe needs to do more in its own defense. But that doesn't mean the United States shouldn't do anything. There are things we can do, and an investment in Ukraine is going to pay off for the United States. Whom do we want the Ukrainians to turn to? So I think that working for Ukraine's success advances both American interests and American values.
GONYEA: Daniel Fried is a former U.S. ambassador to Poland. Ambassador Fried, thank you for being here.
FRIED: Thanks for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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