DON GONYEA, HOST:
We will be staying with the legacy of South Carolina Republican Lindsey Graham, who died Saturday evening. In addition to his long and storied career in the Senate, Graham also tried his hand once at a run for the Oval Office, just over a decade ago in 2015. I spoke with him a few weeks before he launched that short-lived campaign for president.
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LINDSEY GRAHAM: I got people who are fans. I got people who are critics, and I got people who say, I think I know him, but I really don't know him.
GONYEA: We're joined now by someone who did really know him, one of Senator Graham's former colleagues, Jeff Flake. He was a Republican senator from Arizona from 2013 to 2019. They served on the Senate Judiciary Committee together. Senator, welcome.
JEFF FLAKE: Hey. Thanks for having me on.
GONYEA: So I have a memory of my first meeting with Senator Graham. It was that interview from 2015 in Iowa. He was late. He was really late. And when he eventually arrived, he started saying, I apologize, I apologize. And just as I was about to say, it's OK. We're used to that. He cuts me off, and he goes, I apologize for not bringing liquor.
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GONYEA: And to me, that kind of encapsulates kind of who he was. Do you have a story like that?
FLAKE: Oh. He was funny. I got to know him first - our lockers were next to each other in the House gym just before he got elected to the Senate. It was endlessly hilarious when you're around Lindsey. And he didn't have any family in town. He had a small family - just a sister that he raised, basically, and nobody in Washington. And he was always looking for people to have dinner with. And Lindsey was always up for a dinner date. And he was just endlessly fun, whether it's on CODELs overseas or on the Senate floor, just anywhere. He was fun.
GONYEA: Well, like everyone in politics these days, Lindsey Graham had a career that could be marked by before President Trump...
FLAKE: Right.
GONYEA: ...And after President Trump. He was initially very critical of Trump and then became a close ally. Tell me what those two eras looked like for Senator Graham.
FLAKE: Yeah. Well, he always reminded me of, you know, the old-time senators. Everett Dirksen once said, I'm a man of unbending and fixed principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. And that was Lindsey. Lindsey certainly was a very big critic of President Trump. He was one of my partners on the immigration reform, the Gang of Eight. When President Trump came along, he found a way to accommodate that but always trying to influence President Trump in certain ways, and he certainly did. But Lindsey wanted to be in the middle of it, and he always was. And in many ways, in terms of our alliances abroad and what America should look like, he certainly moved in the right direction.
GONYEA: Republicans had a choice on Trump when Trump became president. He made one decision. You made another. Talk about that.
FLAKE: Well, I certainly couldn't countenance, you know, being with the man and voting with him and supporting some of his policies and condoning some of his behavior. But some chose to, you know, try to influence him. Lindsey was one of those, and I'm not going to fault that. And I think he did have influence. I worked with him in the Senate before and after. I worked with him when I was ambassador. He would often call, and he was always pushing the right direction there. So I think that he chose to try to have influence where he could, and I'm glad that some people did.
GONYEA: You served with Senator Graham on the Senate Judiciary Committee, perhaps most famously during the confirmation hearing of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who faced sexual misconduct allegations at the time. Senator Graham vociferously defended Justice Kavanaugh in those hearings. What do you remember, seated near him in that committee chamber?
FLAKE: I remember that well. That's when he - Senator Graham excoriated the Democrats for coming forward with this allegation when they knew of it before. And he was justified in that anger. I felt strongly that we needed an FBI investigation. I thought that whether or not Judge Kavanaugh moved on to become Justice Kavanaugh, it was the right thing to do. Senator Graham disagreed with me vehemently, and some of his comments toward Republicans were directed at me. As soon as I called for that investigation, we agreed to it. He came to me that night and said, this is the best thing to do (laughter). You did the right thing.
GONYEA: So he attacked you in the actual hearing.
FLAKE: He did (laughter).
GONYEA: But then afterward, you found common ground. He came around to where you were.
FLAKE: Yeah. In fact, we had dinner that night, and he said, this is the best thing, you did the right thing - after he had excoriated me in the committee and in private in the anteroom. But that was Lindsey. He could be very passionate but be accommodating, and that's why he was such an effective legislator. And I should say, I mean, Lindsey, like I said, he was an old-time pole. He had voted for President Obama's nominees to the court and for ambassadorships, for Cabinet positions, and he was very bipartisan in that way, in a way that he felt the Democrats weren't on that day.
GONYEA: Lindsey Graham did support American allies. He was very proud of that. He was very vocal about that. He supported military intervention in many places around the world during his time in office. Most recently, that included support for the war with Iran. And we should note that he pushed Trump on financial and military support for Ukraine. Do you have a memory of him that really encapsulates how he thought of foreign policy?
FLAKE: Yes. When I was in Turkey, about 18 months of my time there were spent trying to get Sweden into NATO over Turkey's objection. And one of my real allies at that time was Lindsey Graham because there were things that Turkey wanted from the United States Congress, and Lindsey was as good as anybody at working those deals and working that issue.
GONYEA: Did you ever really confront your differences over Trump? He became an inside adviser to Trump and the rise of Trump but, I think it's fair to say, cost you your career in the Senate.
FLAKE: Oh. We talked about it. He knew where I was, and he appreciated that. And I knew where he was, and I appreciated that as well. So we were still friends to the end. And I just knew that he was always trying to move the country in the right direction. So yeah, we talked about it but remained very good friends throughout.
GONYEA: Jeff Flake is a former U.S. senator for Arizona. Senator, thank you.
FLAKE: Thank you.
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