SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
President Trump signed an executive order last night exempting Russia from sweeping economic sanctions passed by Congress. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, describes the move as unfortunate. Trump has already lifted sanctions on Russian diesel, and he is continuing to blame Ukraine for high fuel prices. Meanwhile, Russia has stepped up airstrikes, while Ukraine's military also saw disruptions to intelligence sharing and access to Starlink that left frontlines and Ukrainian cities vulnerable. Earlier this week, NPR's Joanna Kakissis spoke for nearly an hour with Zelenskyy at his office in Kyiv. She joins us now. Thanks for being with us, Joanna.
JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Thanks for having me on the show, Scott.
SIMON: What was President Zelenskyy's mood like?
KAKISSIS: Well, Scott, he looked really tired, but he was actually really relaxed and engaged during our interview. He said repeatedly that Ukraine sees the U.S. as a partner, and so that's why he doesn't understand why President Trump seems to accommodate the Kremlin and Russian President Vladimir Putin.
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KAKISSIS: Does it frustrate you that President Trump continues to placate the Russians?
PRESIDENT/NPR CLIP VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: I don't know. It - maybe it's his tactics. I really don't know.
KAKISSIS: How do you feel? How does it make you feel?
ZELENSKYY: Really?
KAKISSIS: Really.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not sure that...
KAKISSIS: You want to answer that.
ZELENSKYY: ...You will like it. We are different people. I think that President Trump, maybe he likes such people. I don't know. Because...
KAKISSIS: Like dictators, maybe?
ZELENSKYY: Like Putin.
KAKISSIS: So Zelenskyy was really cautious about criticizing Trump himself, even though Trump has called, once again, for Ukrainians to ditch Zelenskyy through wartime elections.
SIMON: Cautious about President Trump. What was he more expansive talking about?
KAKISSIS: Well, Zelenskyy was much more interested in talking about how to end the war. He also talked about what victory means to him and also how security guarantees from the U.S. can help keep the peace. And he said he welcomes any ceasefires, including this energy ceasefire Trump claimed he had secured from Russia and Ukraine last week. I asked him how he found out about the energy ceasefire, and here's what Zelenskyy said.
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ZELENSKYY: Through social, like you.
KAKISSIS: Truth Social?
ZELENSKYY: We are, together, ordinary people.
KAKISSIS: (Laughter).
ZELENSKYY: The President didn't call us. Yeah. Yeah. But it's OK. I mean, it doesn't matter what way between us, but we didn't attack because I hope that Trump will push Putin to energy ceasefire because we need hope because we want to end this war. We need some steps of de-escalation. But the steps from de-escalation doesn't mean our steps, yes? It's - mean, it's more about Russia.
KAKISSIS: So you called President Trump's diesel - Russian diesel announcement, a weak decision by a strong partner. So explain why you believe your strong partner, at least historically, is making a weak decision that benefits Moscow. Why do you think it happened?
ZELENSKYY: First of all, about this decision, this volume of diesel will not influent on the price in the United States. I'm sure. Yeah. Because the volume is not enough. It's not enough for the United States, but it's quite enough for Russia to spend more money, much money, on the war. I'm sure this diesel will not help Americans but will help Putin. I don't know all the reasons, and it's a pity.
I think that we have to be true partners, strategic partners and very strong. Because I know that United States is very strong, and I hope United States understands that we are strong partners. When Putin attacked us and began occupation, we didn't run away. We stood strong on the side of Western partners, on the side of Europe and, of course, on the side of the American people.
KAKISSIS: So nearly five years into this war, what does victory mean to you?
ZELENSKYY: You know, first of all, no chance to repeat the war. This is the first.
KAKISSIS: Yeah.
ZELENSKYY: The security guarantees from the United States direct, good way - is good way, but we need more details. What does it mean?
KAKISSIS: And that's what you're describing now...
ZELENSKYY: I mean, if Putin...
KAKISSIS: But...
ZELENSKYY: ...Will attack us, Trump will attack Putin. This is the answer. If I have in the paper just this. If Putin will attack Ukraine, Trump will attack Putin, point...
KAKISSIS: That's a security guarantee.
ZELENSKYY: That's all.
KAKISSIS: OK. But then...
ZELENSKYY: That's all.
KAKISSIS: ...Can you - I mean, you're...
ZELENSKYY: But not Trump - not only personally, with Army.
KAKISSIS: President Trump has once again called for a new president here. It's obviously not the first time. This is something that Moscow has also called for, and he's repeatedly raised the question of Ukrainian elections. So do you see this as an attempt to influence who leads Ukraine? And how do you see your political future?
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ZELENSKYY: Now, look, I want to end this war. I have only one goal - to end this war as quick as possible, and I'm focusing on it. But during the war, the securities is the priority No. 1. How to make elections - that's why we said, look, give us ceasefire. Because the topic - how to change me - I think it's not the new topic. Putin began it. President Trump also, yes, raised this topic. It's not something new for me. Maybe focus to end the war, not to end me.
KAKISSIS: So Zelenskyy said ending the war, not me. Scott, he's continuing to meet with European leaders to make that happen, even though with the Trump administration, he may have a tough road ahead.
SIMON: NPR's Joanna Kakissis in Kyiv, with some highlights from her interview with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. And you can hear a longer version of our conversation on NPR's State Of The World podcast. That's on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Joanna, thanks so much.
KAKISSIS: Thanks for having me on the show, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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