TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. With filmmaker Spike Lee, there are a few guarantees. The story will have something to say. The images will enter the cultural conversation, and he's gonna weave in New York any chance he gets. Over 40 years and more than 35 films, Spike Lee has captured defining moments in American life - the racial tensions on the hottest day of the year in "Do The Right Thing," the sweeping life of Malcolm X, and the devastation and aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in "When The Levees Broke." He's given us dramas, comedies and documentaries that take on power, history, race, and community. And along the way, he's introduced audiences to actors we now can't imagine Hollywood without - Halle Berry, Rosie Perez, Samuel L. Jackson and Denzel Washington.
SPIKE LEE: You're leaving out G-Money (ph), Giancarlo Esposito? We'd be here forever.
MOSLEY: The list is vast. We will be here forever. His latest, Highest 2 Lowest," flips Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic, "High And Low" into a modern-day hip-hop drama. Denzel Washington plays a music mogul, whose world unravels when his family is pulled into a ransom plot. Jeffrey Wright and A$AP Rocky round out the cast, with Rocky stepping into a Spike Lee joint for the first time. And Spike Lee, welcome back to FRESH AIR.
LEE: When was the last time I was here?
MOSLEY: I know it's been some years.
LEE: It's been a minute.
MOSLEY: It's very - yes.
LEE: Look, I'm happy to be here. Let's go.
MOSLEY: Let's go. Let me tell audiences about this film. So in this film, Denzel Washington plays David King. He owns this record label, this very successful record label. And his son, along with the son of his friend and driver, Jeffrey Wright, is kidnapped for ransom. And the kidnapper, played by A$AP Rocky, accidentally releases the wrong young man, leaving King and the decision to fork over $17.5 million...
LEE: In French, in Swiss Francs.
MOSLEY: ...In Swiss Francs, for a young man who is not his son. Let's listen to a clip.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HIGHEST 2 LOWEST")
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) King David. Now ain't this something?
DENZEL WASHINGTON: (As David King) Sorry?
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) I got your full attention now, huh? You finally listening to me.
WASHINGTON: (As David King) Yeah, I'm listening.
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) Good.
WASHINGTON: (As David King) You know you got the wrong boy, right?
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) Yeah, so I've heard. And I also learned you can never trust the help.
WASHINGTON: (As David King, laughter).
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) Well, luckily, for me, it was never about the boy. It was always about you.
WASHINGTON: (As David King) Well, fair enough. But if it's about me, then you can't expect me to pay $17 1/2 million for somebody else's son, if it's about me.
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) Well then, his blood is going to be on your hands, then. How you want it?
WASHINGTON: (As David King) Nah, man. Come on, now.
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) This ain't no f*****g negotiation.
WASHINGTON: (As David King) Hey.
A$AP ROCKY: (As Yung Felon) It's the day of reckoning. You're not God no more, [expletive]. I am.
WASHINGTON: (As David King) All right, listen, God gave you everything you want, right? No, God gave you everything you need. So the question is, what do you need? How can I help? You ain't saying I'm God, but I can help.
MOSLEY: That was a scene from Spike Lee's newest film, "Highest 2 Lowest." Spike, this film wrestles with a couple of different themes, but there is this main question that is being asked. What would you do to save your own child? What would you do to save the child of someone you love? And you've always taken on subjects that kind of move with time. Like, you're asking a moral question in your work. What was it in particular about this story, reimagining this story, that you felt like was so important to tell right now?
LEE: While I'm glad to use the word reimagining, I'd say, reinterpretation 'cause I'm running away from the word remake. But Kurosawa's film - the great Akira Kurosawa, who made this film post-war, Japan, 1963 - it's from a book by a writer, Ed McBain, and the strength of this film, the strength of the book and Kurosawa's film - it really deals with morality. And when you have an actor - and in the Japanese version, Toshiro Mifune, one of the great, great actors, and then with Denzel, who's right there - great actors, when they're going through trials and tribulations, the audience becomes engaged, and they're with that person every step of the way. Consequently, audiences, when they see this film, the ones we've seen already - they're with Denzel's character, David King, and they ask themselves, what would they do?
MOSLEY: Right, right.
LEE: What would they do in the position that they see onscreen, that the great, magnificent Denzel Washington is in? And it takes star quality. Here's the thing. The reason why people are stars is because they have the talent, and the audience is engaged.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: And from the jump, the audience been engaged with Mr. Denzel Washington, and I've been blessed with five of those dynamic duos.
MOSLEY: Right. You guys are like Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro. Yeah.
LEE: Or you could say Sid - the great - the late great Sid Lumet and Al Pacino. You could say Francis Ford with Brando in "Godfather" and "Apocalypse Now." So, throughout history, you had these pairings.
MOSLEY: There's something a little disconcerting, I'll say, about seeing Denzel and this character. He portrays it so well. I've seen the film twice, and, you know, the first time...
LEE: Twice?
MOSLEY: Yeah. The first time, I was like, man, he's so - he's, like, disheveled a little bit. He's not, like, a man - he's at the top, but he doesn't appear at the top. The second time, I felt like, that's on purpose. Like, there's...
LEE: Yes.
MOSLEY: ...Something that's being seen in the way that he's moving that perhaps he's out of step with this moment.
LEE: Well, I think that's a great observation. I mean, he's not at the top anymore. His label, record label, Stackin' Hits, is not putting out the hits anymore.
MOSLEY: Right.
LEE: So he's in a very vulnerable part. And also, when you're at the top and that point comes where you're not at the top anymore, that's earthshaking.
MOSLEY: In the original film, in Kurosawa's film, the protagonist is a shoe executive.
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: In yours, a music mogul - Why did you choose music? It's an interesting role.
LEE: Well, that was - the script went through Hollywood for many years. And so when it ended up in Denzel's hands, that change had been already been made. So I got a call. Denzel says, Spike, I got this script. You want to direct? I said, yeah. Send it FedEx. And before I even hung up the phone, I knew I wanted to do the film, not even knowing - haven't read what the script was and was about. 'Cause Denzel didn't say - he didn't describe it, just said, I got a script. I want you to read it. That's the way it happened.
MOSLEY: It's interesting that that was already the way the script was written when it got to you. And, of course, immediately, you're like, yes. Music is such an integral part of your work. It's interwoven into your storytelling.
LEE: It's part of the filmmaking.
MOSLEY: Yeah, it's part of the filmmaking. There's this piece of music, though, right off the top. It's - you open with the 1943 Rodgers and Hammerstein "Oh, What A Beautiful Mornin'" from "Oklahoma."
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: And - but the rest of the film is, like, soul and hip-hop. How did that - is there a story behind you choosing it?
LEE: Well, I love all types of music. And I remember my mother was a cinephile. My father hated movies, but my mother is a cinephile. I'm the oldest, so they both have passed, but she was the one that - I was my mother's movie date 'cause my father hated Hollywood. So we - she introduced me a whole lot of films. Of course, at the time, I didn't want - I mean, I wanted to run a - I was a wild, broken kid (ph) - run up and down the streets and play stickball, stoop ball, stuff, but she says, you know, I'm taking your little rusty butt, we're going to the movies, so I don't care what you say.
(LAUGHTER)
LEE: And here's the thing, though. Every time I was like, I don't want to go, I don't want to go. And then we'd come out of the theater, I said, Mommy, that was good. So it's just an example of kids don't know. And when parents take the time and introduce their stuff to children, who might go kicking and screaming - but when they come out of the theater, the movie theater or the museum, whatever, you know, you could say lives have been changed. And I know that's happened to me.
MOSLEY: Do you remember one of the movies your mom took you to that really stuck with you?
LEE: All right, this is a famous one. I've said this before. So anybody at home who's seen or heard this before - excuse me. My mother loved Sean Connery as James Bond, 007. And my mother, she would always want to go to the opening weekend of these films. And the theater was packed. And, you know, those early James Bond films, the explosions, gunplay, just crazy stuff. And there was a lull in the film you got to have because you can't do that the whole length of the film. You got to give the audience a breath, you know, just some quiet, you know? And the theater is completely quiet. And I said to my mother, Mommy, why is that lady, why is her name Pussy Galore?
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
LEE: The whole theater heard that. My mother grabbed me by the neck and said, don't you say another thing (laughter). I'm like, what'd I do, what'd I do? (Laughter) True story. But that film came out in '63, so I was born in '57, so I was 6 years old.
MOSLEY: Right. You're like, what's this?
LEE: I didn't know.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: But it just sounded like a funny name to me (laughter).
MOSLEY: And you still remember it to this day (laughter). Every time that word come up.
LEE: Hey, I was not the only one that - even adults probably said something about that name of that character (laughter). Whew, my mother was embarrassed.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Spike Lee. His latest film, "Highest 2 Lowest," is a reimagining of Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic "High And Low" set in the world of American hip-hop and global fame. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF EDDIE PALMIERI'S "DA LOWDOWN")
MOSLEY: Today, we're talking to Spike Lee, the director, writer and producer whose more than 35 films include "Do The Right Thing," "Malcolm X," "BlacKkKlansman" and "When The Levees Broke." His latest movie, "Highest 2 Lowest," stars Denzel Washington as a music mogul whose life unravels when his family is targeted in a ransom plot. The film also stars A$AP Rocky.
Denzel's character has lost his ear, really. Like, he's become so far away from that hungry artistic guy he was at the beginning of his life, his career.
LEE: There's a great scene where his wife, played by Ilfenesh Hadera, says that, you know, she doesn't see the joy anymore.
MOSLEY: Right. And it's something that I heard happen often. I mean, sometimes I can feel it. You get to midlife, and you feel like this thing that you're so passionate about, it ebbs. There are ebbs and flows.
LEE: Ebbs and flows.
MOSLEY: Have you ever been there?
LEE: No.
MOSLEY: You've not? You've always had a passion? Yeah.
LEE: Film? Oh, that's - look, I can't talk for anybody else. But for me, I've never fell out of love with cinema because - I tell this to my students. I'm a tenured professor of film at NYU Graduate Film school. Ernest Dickerson, great camera, shot all my films up to "Malcolm X." Ang Lee was my classmate. Jim Jarmusch was two years ahead of us. So my love has always been there. Now, there's a business side. That's different. But just talking about making films, I truly believe I was put here to be a storyteller. So I'll never - you know, you can get the BS. But push that aside. And sometimes it can be a big pile (laughter).
MOSLEY: Right. Like, how do you not allow yourself to be consumed by all of that stuff you just have to deal with to get to the thing you love so much?
LEE: Because when you get to the thing after going through that stuff, you're getting through to the thing you love. And to break it down even a little more for my sister in the audience. First day of class, I tell my students that I'm lucky. And if you could make a living doing what you love, you won.
MOSLEY: There's this explosive, propulsive scene in the film, in "Highest 2 Lowest."
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: It's like the apex part of it. It happens during the Puerto Rican Day parade. And I want to talk a little bit about it.
LEE: Oh, you're leaving something out. Who are the fans on the No. 4 train, and where are they going?
MOSLEY: Baseball and...
LEE: They're New York Yankee fans.
MOSLEY: Yankee fans, right.
LEE: And who are the Yankees playing that day in Yankee Stadium?
MOSLEY: Boston.
LEE: The hated Red Sox (laughter).
MOSLEY: Right, right. We can't, like, leave that out. There are so many. I mean, that whole scene, there's much there.
LEE: You know what's that called, really? A set piece.
MOSLEY: Say more. What does that mean?
LEE: A scene that stands out.
MOSLEY: Yes.
LEE: Yeah, that's the set piece. But also, the set piece, there's one like that in the original, too, on the bullet trains in Tokyo, Japan. And so, both scenes take place where the ransom is dumped to be picked up by the kidnapper.
MOSLEY: I was wondering, what came first? Was it the music and the parade? Was it the scene in the train? Because it's really, like, a story about New York set inside of a film.
LEE: Well, it comes from the original. I mean, that's where the inspiration comes from. But I knew I cannot do a reinterpretation of that but not even use this scene, a famous scene from that film. And the thing that was important, that the character played by A$AP Rocky, I didn't want it to be people think this is just a young thug rapper, you know? No, young thug is smart, even though his intentions are off the mark. But I also don't want to play the NYPD as dopes, as stupid. So I had to come up with this scenario where it would be very complicated for the NYPD to stop this thing happening.
MOSLEY: Right.
LEE: So now I thought about having this drop, ransom drop, happen on a Sunday afternoon, Yankee Stadium. The Red Sox are in town. And also, on top of that, the Puerto Rican Day parade is always on a Sunday. So have both of those on a Sunday. And then I went on to my brother, Eddie Palmieri. He passed away three days, three or four days before the premiere in New York in Brooklyn.
MOSLEY: Did he ever have a chance to see it? Did he see himself in it?
LEE: No. And filming this, you know, we were very respectful, and it was not done to playback. We did seven or eight takes - I don't remember exactly - and each time was live. The Eddie Palmieri Salsa Orchestra playing live. And when you see the film, you can see the joy in Eddie's face as he's performing and doing the thing that he was born to be on Earth, you know, to perform and sing and represent the great people of Puerto Rico.
MOSLEY: It's such a moving scene, too, also in knowing and understanding that he just passed away...
LEE: Yes.
MOSLEY: ...We just lost him.
LEE: One of the giants. In general, one of the giants. And it was very emotional at the premiere in New York in Brooklyn, we had Eddie II. And there's many members of the family there, too. He spoke to the audience before we began the film.
MOSLEY: Oh, oh, that's beautiful. I want to stay on "Highest 2 Lowest" because I wanted to tour this penthouse apartment...
LEE: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: ...That Denzel and his wife...
LEE: That's a real building.
MOSLEY: It's a real building, and the art and the artifacts - is that - tell me the story about that. Are those your pieces?
LEE: A lot of them are, but there - copies were made because stuff gets messed up on a film. So I can have somebody accidentally put a hole in a Basquiat. We weren't - (inaudible).
MOSLEY: I've heard that before.
LEE: Or a real, original Richard Avedon portrait of Lena Horne, you know? So those are ports, and then we finished, those copies were destroyed.
MOSLEY: OK. So, like, copies of copies. But just to describe for the audience, I mean, Basquiats on the wall.
LEE: It's a shortcut.
MOSLEY: It's...
LEE: It's a shortcut to show that this is a fluent Black family.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: You know, and the money, you - first, you see where they live from the opening credit sequence, but when you go inside their penthouse, you see there's millions of dollars on the wall.
MOSLEY: Of Black art in particular.
LEE: Black art. A lot of that art is owned by my wife and I, Tonya.
MOSLEY: When did you start collecting art?
LEE: Well, I started collecting comic books, baseball cards, basketball cards. So the art thing came much later when I had some money. But here's the thing - I'm under the age where our mothers threw out our comic books, our baseball card, which worth thousands and thousands...
MOSLEY: Today. Right?
LEE: We didn't know.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: Here's the thing, though, especially in Brooklyn - we're flipping cards. We're putting cards on our bike so you - on the spokes so you can hear the noise. No one knew.
MOSLEY: Yes.
LEE: No one knew.
MOSLEY: That they would be worth something.
LEE: Millions of dollars.
MOSLEY: Right? You could have funded your first. "She's Gotta Have It" with all of those.
LEE: (Laughter) Which cost $175,000, which was...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: And there are cars worth more than that.
MOSLEY: Right. I follow this young woman on TikTok, and she talks a lot about art, and she - I think she's an art history major, and she's, like, out in the world now just starting out. And I was like, she seems familiar. I don't know. And then one day, I happened across one of her videos, and it's your daughter. So she...
LEE: Satchel?
MOSLEY: ...Grew up - yeah.
LEE: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: She grew up around all this, right? Yeah.
LEE: Yeah. She's grown. So is my son, Jackson. And then they're both in the arts. My daughter's a great photographer. My son, Jackson, you know, he's - works for me. He's like, the merchandise, you know, getting deals done. So they're both, you know, thriving.
MOSLEY: They're thriving. But art...
LEE: Is the bedrock.
MOSLEY: It's the bedrock and foundation.
LEE: 'Cause they grew up, you know, with the - my wife - Tonya's a producer, too. In fact, the films she produced was the first place I saw A$AP Rocky in that film.
MOSLEY: Wait, that was her film, his first film. What is it called?
LEE: The title of the film that Tonya produced - "Dope." It was "Dope." That's where I first saw Rocky in front of the camera. Not in a music video, in a film. Rocky's performance is amazing. And last night, the screening here in LA, I gave him a big hug. I said, look, I love you. You're great. But the next film, you can't play a rapper, and you cannot just be cornered into doing this role again. You have immense talent. So please don't play another rapper.
MOSLEY: You see...
LEE: Right after this.
MOSLEY: Right. You see more. You see depth. There's a lot of comparisons people give to him and Denzel because of the way they look...
LEE: They look...
MOSLEY: ...But then also...
LEE: The first I saw, checking it out five years ago, saying, this guy looks like...
MOSLEY: Denzel.
LEE: Denzel's son.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: And that was even before, you know, this - the whole thing, you know, "High And Low" (ph) happening - "Highest 2 Lowest" happening.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: I mean, the community said that. I don't want him to be put in the corner this early in his career.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: I mean, he is - I mean, he's a leading man.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. My guest today is Spike Lee. We're talking about his new film, "Highest 2 Lowest." We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILL LEE & THE NATURAL SPIRITUAL ORCHESTRA'S "WE LOVE ROLL CALL Y-ALL")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. If you're just joining us, my guest is Academy Award-winning filmmaker Spike Lee. Over the last four decades, he's written and directed more than 35 films, including "Do The Right Thing," "Malcolm X," "BlacKkKlansman" and "When The Levees Broke." His latest, "Highest 2 Lowest," is a reimagining of Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic "High And Low," set in the world of American hip-hop and global celebrity. It stars Denzel Washington, Jeffrey Wright and A$AP Rocky. Lee has won many awards for his work, including an Oscar for best adapted screenplay for "BlacKkKlansman" and a place in the National Film Registry for several of his films, including "Do The Right Thing," "Malcolm X" and "4 Little Girls."
I'm actually just thinking about you back when you first came on the scene. I mean, you came like a lightning bolt. You talk about campaigning for Malcolm X - putting that nicely. I remember the media really portraying you, talking to you a lot about being angry. And I had this debate with my husband about it 'cause I was like, I actually really loved it. I felt like, you know, as a young person, being antiestablishment, but he felt like...
LEE: And what did your husband say? What did your husband say?
MOSLEY: Well, he said, well, I never thought he was angry. I just thought he was confident and knew what he wanted and had a point of view.
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: But...
LEE: Well, you know...
MOSLEY: ...What was your assessment? You were kind of tough on the media in those early days.
LEE: Well, they were tough on me - you know, this belligerent, young rabble-rouser. I mean, when "Do The Right Thing" came out, you know, I was portrayed as a racist. And when Mookie threw a garbage can through the - Sal's famous window in "Jungle Fever," I was - said I was antisemitic because of how they felt the portrayal of the two Jewish owners of the club played by the Turturro brothers...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: ...Nick and John. So I don't combat that type of criticism as much as I used to. Of course, it's died down. But when "Do The Right Thing" premiered in Cannes, 1989, American journalists were saying that this film was going to cause riots - 'cause Black people riot in summertime. And they were pleading to Universal Pictures. If you're going to release the film, don't release in summertime.
MOSLEY: Because they thought that would be...
LEE: Black folks...
MOSLEY: ...Where we'd be all riled up or something.
LEE: ...Black folks can go berserk.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: It's kind of crazy looking back on that. Like, a film's not going to do that. But when you - if you look, that film really had the crystal ball. You know, you look at the killing, the murder of Radio Raheem by the NYPD in a choke hold. Where did that happen? We were talking about global warming. A lot of things in that film, you know, we talked about came to life in later years.
MOSLEY: I mean, the sociopolitical message, it almost mirrored, to a T, 2020.
LEE: Yes.
MOSLEY: That's when everyone was talking about it. Like, Radio Raheem became a meme.
LEE: I wrote - when I wrote that script...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: ...In '88, and we shot it in '89...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: ...And, you know, it - look, I'm not happy. I'm not bragging about that, but we - I'm not happy that this stuff you had in the film ended up happening in real life.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: But it did.
MOSLEY: The thing about it is, it seems like we didn't have the - we weren't there yet in the '80s and '90s to have a true conversation about it. Came back up in 2020 - allowed us to tap into it a little bit.
LEE: But here's - and I know what you're saying, sis, but it's sad that people have - people had to die for this to happen.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: Families were destroyed because of this. They really weaponized the word woke. And as we sit here in LA, you know, they got the feds now trying to take over D.C. - formerly known as Chocolate City (laughter). We live in - you know, it's - the world now is bananas.
MOSLEY: Let's talk a little bit about your documentary work because you've done quite a few of them.
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: Academy Award-nominated "4 Little Girls" about the '63 Birmingham church bombing; "Bad 25," which I forgot about, but "Bad 25" about Michael Jackson's "Bad" album - and that's not - I mean, that's not even a full list.
LEE: "Off The Wall."
MOSLEY: "Off The Wall" - I've heard many storytellers say, especially documentarians, like, they take on work that they can't get out of their heads. And I wanted to know what's your rubric for finding the documentaries that - stories that you want to tell.
LEE: For me, I don't make a distinction between feature films and documentaries. For me, it's storytelling. And one of the most significant films I ever made was "4 Little Girls," which was about the September 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama. And the goal was to talk to the parents, the relatives, the teachers, talk about these four beautiful, young Black girls who were murdered with - murdered by multiple sticks of dynamite, and who these beautiful young girls might have been if they were allowed to live.
These members of the KKK stuck dynamite in a place of worship - a church - and murdered four beautiful, young Black girls who weren't allowed to live. Who knows what they might have been? Mothers? Grandchildren? But their life was, you know, snuffed out with active hate. J. Edgar Hoover was not a friend to Black folks, not a friend to Dr. King or the Civil Rights Movement. That week, they know who did it. It was one of the people. The guy's nickname was Dynamite Bob.
And we wanted this film to be seen. I did it at HBO. We wanted this film to be eligible for the best feature-length documentary. And so in order to do that, you have to have a weeklong run, theatrical run. And a couple days before that, I got a call by the FBI. (Laughter) I don't know why they're calling me. And they said they would like to see a print of the film. And a week later, they reopened the case.
MOSLEY: Wow.
LEE: And it sent two of those [expletive], those murderers to prison. They had been walking around free since September - J. Edgar Hoover, FBI, they knew who did it. So...
MOSLEY: That's pretty powerful, Spike.
LEE: So I can't do anything to top that.
MOSLEY: No, that's pretty...
LEE: And it's not a thing I talk about a lot, but it did happen.
MOSLEY: It's one of your most powerful pieces of work.
LEE: I agree.
MOSLEY: You lost an Academy Award. You were, like, nominated for it, but you didn't...
LEE: Let me tell you a funny story.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: So we got nominated, and I told HBO, we got to bring the parents to LA. So we did not win. And so, at that time, Denzel co-owned a restaurant. So that was supposed to be the party. And it was a party. And no one was upset about not winning because their night was made. They got a hug and a kiss on the cheek from Denzel Washington.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
LEE: For them, that was the Oscar (laughter). That was the Oscar. Denzel hugged them and gave them a kiss on the cheek, and they got their Oscar.
MOSLEY: Another story that you told was the story of Hurricane Katrina. And we're now coming up on the anniversary. I know that you all...
LEE: Twenty years.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: Let me ask a question, my sister. You got to help me here. What word can I say instead of anniversary?
MOSLEY: Right. And commemoration doesn't work. It is like, what is the word that speaks to something that...
LEE: You know what? I'll give you my email. So when you get that word...
MOSLEY: Right, you find it.
LEE: Because I think it's coming up August 29, right?
MOSLEY: It is, yeah.
LEE: Please, give me that word because I refuse to say anniversary.
MOSLEY: Right.
LEE: For me, that's birthdays, wedding or what. But what happened...
MOSLEY: Happened 20 years ago.
LEE: I don't want to...
MOSLEY: Yep.
LEE: Help me. I can't say anniversary anymore. I won't say anniversary.
MOSLEY: So you just say it's been 20 years, yeah.
LEE: Thank you.
MOSLEY: Right. Right.
LEE: Boom.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: It's been 20 years. There's another documentary, "Katrina: Come Hell Or High Water"...
LEE: Yes.
MOSLEY: ...That you're associated with. Are you producer, director?
LEE: Yeah, I'm the executive producer of it. And there's three parts, and I did the final episode of the three. And also, Ryan Coogler has one, too. So a big moment coming up.
MOSLEY: What is it about this particular story? You've already done it with one. What is it that we need to revisit, that we need to sit with and understand about it in this second go-round?
LEE: Americans have short memories, so that's why I became a part of this revisiting of it. And here's another thing. You know, it's that by going back 20 years and then looking at New Orleans today, they've lost a large part of the Black population. Black folks have gone on and thrived in Houston, Atlanta, Georgia, Charlotte, North Carolina. It's a good argument to say that New Orleans has not...
MOSLEY: To show us what it is now, what's been lost.
LEE: Yeah. And, you know, yeah, I think people are still dealing with that.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: Twenty years later.
MOSLEY: Right. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Spike Lee. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILL LEE AND THE NATURAL SPIRITUAL ORCHESTRA'S "WE LOVE ROLL CALL Y-ALL")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Today, we're talking to Spike Lee, whose more than 35 films include "Malcolm X," "BlacKkKlansman" and "Do The Right Thing." His latest is "Highest 2 Lowest."
As you mentioned, your mom was deep into movies. Your dad was a jazz musician. You grew up, like, just surrounded by music.
LEE: In a creative household.
MOSLEY: Creative household. And they often say we like love, and we are connected to the music that was a coming of age for us. Like, we are often perpetually stuck in it. But as a creative, like, how do you view the moving times, the music that we're hearing today, without sounding like a fuddy-duddy? Like, can you see that value?
LEE: Well, I like all types of music. And people were complaining about rock 'n' roll back in the day, so I'm not necessarily a purist, like my father was. I mean, anything that was played with electricity, you know, he was not with that. He always was tone as is.
MOSLEY: Like literally? Like, he didn't even like to play records?
LEE: My father, Bill Lee, was the top folk bassist working. He's on the first Simon & Garfunkel album, the first Gordon Lightfoot album. Like, he played with Judy Collins, I mean, a whole bunch of people. He's on a Bob Dylan album. And when Bob Dylan went electric, everybody went electric. And my father refused to play fender bass. They call it tone as is. I'm not doing anything where electricity is used to amplify the sound and make it louder.
MOSLEY: Wow.
LEE: And my mother had to go to work.
MOSLEY: Wow.
LEE: If you saw "Crooklyn"...
MOSLEY: That's real life? That actually happened? That's the story?
LEE: That's the Lee family.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: And my mother, I mean, when my father was working, she was going to Bloomingdale's and...
(LAUGHTER)
LEE: ...Lord & Taylor, you know, every week. But my father said, I'm not doing that. I'm not playing electric bass. My mother had to work, you know? And I saw. And as the eldest of five, I was feeling a certain way about my father because my mother was working and had to cook and clean. And including myself and my siblings, we were crazy. I mean, relatives knew that them bad Lees were coming over. They were like, oh, boy. I hope they don't eat up all our food and tear our house up (laughter).
MOSLEY: That was a real possibility, huh? Yeah.
LEE: Oh, it happened.
MOSLEY: Yeah?
LEE: It happened. So I felt a way about my father. But then I understood that he's a purist. And my mother supported him, loved him. And so she had to work, cook and clean, you know? She's going to do that, and hopefully, God willing, you know, my father will get a break. And the world would see the great musician he was. And later on, my mother died. You know, he scored my films, my student films at NYU Graduate Film School and then "She's Gotta Have It," "Mo' Better Blues," "Do The Right Thing" and "Jungle Fever."
MOSLEY: You know, Spike, this is a real treat for me to talk to you because...
LEE: Oh, thank you. The treat is mine. It's mutual, my sister.
MOSLEY: Oh, well, I'm happy about that. I think your films are part of, like, my self-conception, my understanding of who I am and the role that I play in this world.
LEE: What's the first film you saw of mine, "She's Gotta Have It"?
MOSLEY: No, because I was too young for that. But I saw that later.
LEE: (Laughter)
MOSLEY: But the one that really sits with me the most is "Malcolm X," and I'll tell you why, because I grew up in Detroit.
LEE: Detroit.
MOSLEY: I grew up in Detroit. Detroit Public Schools, the day that your film came out, they allowed kids to leave school to go see it. And a teacher of mine had us all get on the bus, and we arrived.
LEE: You got on a bus?
MOSLEY: We all got on the bus together.
LEE: I made a movie - (laughter).
MOSLEY: And we arrived at the theater, and there were lots of other schools there. And there is this moment at the end of the film that I want to play. It is where there are kids in classrooms in the United States and then on the continent of Africa.
LEE: Soweto.
MOSLEY: Yes. On May 19...
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: ...That they designate Malcolm X Day.
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: And each student stands up and says I am Malcolm X. Let's listen to it.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MALCOLM X")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As American school teacher) May 19, we celebrate Malcolm X's birthday because he was a great, great Afro-American. And Malcolm X is you, all of you. And you are Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As American school student) I'm Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As American school student) I'm Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As American school student) I'm Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As American school student) I'm Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As American school student) I'm Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As Soweto school student) I am Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #8: (As Soweto school student) I am Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #9: (As Soweto school student) I am Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #10: (As Soweto school student) I am Malcolm X.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #11: (As Soweto school student) I am Malcolm X.
NELSON MANDELA: (As Soweto school teacher) As brother Malcolm said, we declare our right on this Earth to be a man, to be a human being, to be given the rights of a human being, to be respected as a human being in this society, on this Earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence...
MALCOLM X: By any means necessary.
(APPLAUSE)
MOSLEY: That was a clip from Spike Lee's 1992...
LEE: End of the movie.
MOSLEY: ...Film - right - "Malcolm X." It makes me emotional to hear it today, but I'll tell you that day I saw it in the theater, when that by any means necessary, everybody stood up in the theater. They were yelling, they were screaming...
LEE: How were...
MOSLEY: ...They were doing the fist up.
LEE: The Black Power fist? How old - what grade was this, my sister?
MOSLEY: Ninth grade.
LEE: Ninth grade. So first year of high school. Let me tell you the story. I've seen a lot of people, a lot of great people. But to be in a room and direct the great Nelson Mandela for the end of the movie - and the reason why I chose that? Because I had read that Mr. Mandela, who was in prison - what? - for 27 years, I think...
MOSLEY: Yes.
LEE: ...On Robben Island. He said one of the things that kept him going was the autobiography of Malcolm X as told to Alex Haley. And we're going over the script, which is a quote by Malcolm X, and he said, Spike - oh, no, he said, Mr. Lee, I cannot say by any means necessary. But I was - I had - first of all, I had the footage of him saying it, so I knew I could put that in there. But it wasn't till later on I understood that because he was going to run to be president in South Africa.
MOSLEY: Mandela, yeah.
LEE: And Afrikaners would use that against him...
MOSLEY: Against him.
LEE: ...By any means necessary, meaning we're going to kill you white folks. So he was very smart. I didn't protest. I said, it's OK. And also, one of those kids that says I'm Malcolm X is John David Washington, Denzel's son.
MOSLEY: Denzel Washington's son.
LEE: Yeah, who...
MOSLEY: He's a young - I have to go back and look at it again.
LEE: ...Who later on starred in my film "BlacKkKlansman."
MOSLEY: Yes. How did that idea come about to have the kids stand up and declare that? - that classroom scene.
LEE: It's a homage to "Spartacus," but it also - it worked also to show the - make it do. And then the thing is that that sequence where kids stand up in the school started in Soweto. But then it goes to Harlem.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: So I wanted to show, you know, the bond between African Americans and our brothers who - brothers and sisters who are still in...
MOSLEY: It's a powerful show that...
LEE: ...In the motherland. And also...
MOSLEY: ...That we are diaspora.
LEE: Yes. And also, apartheid was still in place.
MOSLEY: Going back, though, to that time period, you were sort of, like, responding to the media. You were responding to them responding to your work and the thoughts that this work would spark something within Black America. But something shifted.
LEE: That there'll be uprising.
MOSLEY: Right.
LEE: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: And so there was a response that you were giving to the media during that time that I just really remember feeling so strong. And then something happened with you. Then you became, like, the person we see today. Like, so jovial and so open.
LEE: But I was like that from the beginning. What you're talking about, the way I was portrayed, which was not who I was. But I cannot stand silent and say that - I mean, for example - that this film was of caused Black folks to riot. I'm talking specifically about...
MOSLEY: "Do The Right Thing."
LEE: ..."Do The Right Thing." And that film got two nominations - Danny Aiello for Sal and also Denzel Washington for "Glory." When I saw "Glory" and that scene where he's getting whipped and that long tear went down his eye, I thought to myself, Danny, you ain't winning.
(LAUGHTER)
LEE: This is not going to happen. And then also, we got - I mean, I got nominated for a screenplay. The film that won that year was "Driving Miss Daisy," so that could tell you more than enough about the climate then and also the people who voted, who were the - people who were members of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
MOSLEY: Did you ever feel that way, though? Like, you were entitled to awards that you did not get, that you earned awards that you did not get? And where do you sit on it? Because...
LEE: Well, I think that - I mean, there's footage of me being not happy. The last time was with "BlacKkKlansman."
MOSLEY: Which wasn't that long ago. I mean, that's...
LEE: What's the name of that film? "Green Book." "Green Book."
MOSLEY: Oh, OK, so it won a - yeah.
LEE: And so I said, man, every time somebody is driving somebody, I'm going to lose.
(LAUGHTER)
LEE: "Driving Miss Daisy" and "Green Book" (laughter). And a funny thing, though. I was very upset, and I jumped out of - and there's footage of this at the Academy that night - I jumped out on my seat. I was cursing. And my wife trying to have me sit down. I'm like, just get off me (laughter).
MOSLEY: Yeah.
LEE: Yeah, just sitting. Then my - Tonya, my wife, sent my son out there to get me. And so I calmed down.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Spike Lee. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF KENNY BARRON'S "ONE LITTLE ACORN (PIANO/TRUMPET DUO)")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Today we're talking to Spike Lee, whose more than 35 films include "Malcolm X," "BlacKkKlansman" and "Do The Right Thing." His latest is "Highest 2 Lowest."
It's never been a secret about the filmmakers who have inspired you over the years. I remember a few years ago, you had an exhibit at the Academy Museum.
LEE: Right.
MOSLEY: And, like, all the folks were there, all of your heroes.
LEE: My giants, yes.
MOSLEY: Yeah, all of your giants. For you, though, a few years ago, "She's Gotta Have It" was remade.
LEE: Not remade.
MOSLEY: Reimagined.
LEE: That's the same thing that happened with this film. People think - "Highest 2 Lowest" is not a remake of "High And Low."
MOSLEY: Right.
LEE: It was reinterpretation.
MOSLEY: Yes.
LEE: Yeah.
MOSLEY: That interpretation was an interpretation for the '20s, you know, the 2020s now. Your "She's Gotta Have It" was so subversive 'cause it was, like...
LEE: 1986.
MOSLEY: 1986 - about sexual liberation, a young woman who has the freedom to choose. I just wonder, like, as you move through time and you're experiencing your own work, other folks reimagining your story for a new time, like, it's kind of like the beauty of storytelling.
LEE: But let me tell you this, though. It was only when I got into NYU graduate film school, three-year program, that I really got introduced to world cinema. And the first Kurosawa film that I saw that wasn't a samurai film was "Rashomon." It's a film about a murder and a rape and how these different characters each tell their version of the story. And that premise I used for "She's Gotta Have It." So this is not the first thing, you know, I'm getting down with my brother Kurosawa - I got to meet, too.
MOSLEY: When did you meet him?
LEE: It was when he was here in the States. And at that time, Scorsese and Spielberg and Francis Ford were promoting - they produced a film. I forgot the name of the film. And one of my prize possessions - it was in the show at the Brooklyn Museum - there's a beautiful portrait that he signed for me. He did his autographs with a paintbrush...
MOSLEY: Oh, he...
LEE: ...Not Ink. So it was white ink - and gives me a beautiful - people, you go to my Instagram - @officialspikelee. You'll see this portrait that - of him that Kurosawa signed to me with a paintbrush with white paint.
MOSLEY: What a moment. And...
LEE: It was a moment.
MOSLEY: ...What a prized possession.
LEE: Yes.
MOSLEY: Did he know and understand the impact that he had on you through your films? Did you guys talk about...
LEE: Yeah, I told him (laughter).
MOSLEY: You told him about it. Yeah.
LEE: A lot of times, when you meet these giants, you know, after a while, you're going, I'm going for the hour. Like, Spike, all right, we get it.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
LEE: I influenced that. I'm glad I influenced your work, but...
MOSLEY: Right.
LEE: ...I don't have an hour right here for you to tell me that (laughter).
MOSLEY: Yeah. Right, right. Spike Lee, thank you so much...
LEE: Thank you.
MOSLEY: ...For this conversation.
LEE: Thank you very much.
MOSLEY: It's been a pleasure. Yes.
Spike Lee's new film, "Highest 2 Lowest" is now playing in theaters. It will be available to stream on Apple TV+ starting September 5.
Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, journalist Ruth Marcus joins us to talk about President Trump's combative attorney general, Pam Bondi. In her latest piece for The New Yorker, Marcus describes how Bondi has upended the Justice Department, reversing policies and firing staff in what she calls the most convulsive transition of power since Watergate. I hope you can join us.
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page - @thisisfreshair.
(SOUNDBITE OF EDDIE PALMIERI SONG, "PUERTO RICO")
MOSLEY: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PUERTO RICO")
ISMAEL QUINTANA: (Singing in Spanish). Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
