EYDER PERALTA, HOST:
Next week, Australia is launching a massive nationwide experiment, kicking hundreds of thousands of kids and teens off social media. A new law bans children under 16 from sites including TikTok, YouTube, Instagram and X. It's the first country in the world to implement such a law, and it's aimed at protecting young people. Many teens are not happy about it. TikToker Zoe Bender started a petition to lawmakers.
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ZOE BENDER: Sixty-, 70-, 80-year-olds don't know how social media works. They don't know how the world works now. They should not be in Parliament making these decisions for us without getting our input.
PERALTA: There are still a lot of questions about how it will work and what impact it will have, and countries around the world are watching as they consider their own policies. Joining us now is Susan Sawyer. She's the chair of adolescent health at the University of Melbourne. Hey, Susan.
SUSAN SAWYER: Good morning.
PERALTA: So first of all, I mean, how is this going to work? Is it enforceable?
SAWYER: The government has an expectation that the social media companies themselves will be requiring to take reasonable approaches to ensuring that under-16-year-olds from December 10 aren't able to access the sites. But they are not mandating how that will happen, and I think that is one of the big questions.
PERALTA: And, I mean, there's a hefty penalty - right? - if these companies don't comply.
SAWYER: There certainly is. So up to nearly 50 million dollars Australian - that's about $35 million - for repeated transgressions. So, you know, there is a pretty hefty expectation that companies are going to do their bit. But I don't think anyone's expecting that this is going to be perfect from day zero by any means.
PERALTA: So let's get the broader view. What do we know about the harms social media can cause to young people?
SAWYER: I think there are a range of harms that we need to consider. You know, at its most basic, we know that the highly addictive, driven algorithms are encouraging kids to spend much more time online. That is time then not spent on other activities. And that includes physical activity, and that includes sleep, two key elements that are incredibly important to children's health and development more broadly. And then there are some more specific concerns about the potential impact on mental health, where the findings are a little bit more challenging. So we have lots of, if you like, correlational evidence from cross-sectional studies that would be suggesting that those young people who are spending more time on social media are the same group who have poorer mental health measures. But as you and your listeners would know, correlation is not the same as causation. And there are far fewer longitudinal studies that are really able to address this question of causation.
PERALTA: So that said, I mean, is this ban a good idea?
SAWYER: Look, I think it's interesting. I've been in two minds about this ban right from the start. You know, my initial concerns were very much about some of those really practical questions about implementation and really feeling that we need to be pushing tech companies to be doing their bit and trying to address this at source, and really preventing the algorithms that are driving the addictive behaviors as the primary issue rather than necessarily putting in bans. However, it's very apparent that there is no appetite from governments, particularly your government, in relationship to holding tech companies to account for the material that is placed on their websites under their name. So whilst it's not my preferred approach, I do think that we have an expectation that there are going to be benefits from this, although I think probably the benefits are going to be a slower burn than many people might be expecting.
PERALTA: I - it's interesting 'cause I think one of the thoughts in the United States - right? - is that the control here should lie with the parents, right? I mean, I have a - an almost-13-year-old, and she's been asking for a phone forever. She still doesn't have a phone. And it's - it is a very difficult decision to make as a parent, right? But does it belong in the hands of the parent as opposed to in the hands of the government, which is, I think, the conversation that Americans would have, right?
SAWYER: Yeah. I've previously lived in the States when I was doing my medical training and was at Harvard. So I appreciate the very - more individualistic context of the States in comparison to countries like Australia or Canada or European countries, for example. But I think this is failing to appreciate how addictive these algorithms are and the sorts of additions like, you know, the notions of streaks, where young - you know, if young people are then, you know, socially disadvantaged if they don't post something daily with friends, you know, these sorts of elements are just completely overwhelming young people's ability to make sensible decisions. And I don't think that's healthy, and expecting parents to toe the line with that is a recipe for disaster.
PERALTA: That's Susan Sawyer, chair of adolescent health at the University of Melbourne. Thank you for being with us.
SAWYER: My pleasure. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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