AILSA CHANG, HOST:
Songwriter Amy Allen has this story about how her career changed at a movie theater. At the time, she was in nursing school, and she had gone to see the latest "Twilight" movie. And then suddenly, the next thing she remembers is she's outside on the sidewalk.
AMY ALLEN: I clearly just blacked out. And I was like, I think I shouldn't be a nurse if I can't watch a fake vampire being born.
CHANG: (Laughter).
ALLEN: I just - I mean, if that's not a come-to-Jesus moment, I don't know what is. I was like, I am pursuing the wrong thing.
CHANG: Turns out Allen could not do blood. And so she eventually left nursing school and enrolled in music school. And thank God she did because in a very short time, Amy Allen has become one of the most successful songwriters in pop music.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BACK TO YOU")
SELENA GOMEZ: (Singing) If I could do it all again, I know I'd go back to you.
CHANG: She has helped pen hits for Selena Gomez and Harry Styles, for Justin Bieber and Tate McRae. But these days, Allen is probably best known for collaborating with Sabrina Carpenter.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ESPRESSO")
SABRINA CARPENTER: (Singing) Say you can't sleep. Baby, I know. That's that me espresso.
CHANG: Allen is cowriter on every track of Carpenter's previous album, the one that gave us that hit "Espresso." And she's cowriter on every single track of Carpenter's follow-up album, "Man's Best Friend." Earlier this year, Allen won the Grammy award for nonclassical songwriter of the year, and she's been nominated for that award again, among other Grammy nominations. When she visited me at NPR West, I asked her why she made songwriting her career.
What is it about songwriting specifically, as opposed to performing, that fits so well?
ALLEN: I think growing up just listening to some of - you know, my dad schooled my sisters and I on his favorite, like, classic rock albums and the mystique behind that and what the writers were doing with it and just falling in love with the process as I started to dig deeper into it. And I always loved performing. But if you're an artist, I mean, it's not a secret, like, artists are on the road most of the time.
CHANG: Yeah.
ALLEN: And it's a luxury when they get to be in the studio. And every artist I work with is such an amazing writer, but they're always like, I just wish I had more time in the studio...
CHANG: More time in the studio. Yeah.
ALLEN: ...Because it's the most fun part. You know, performing is amazing, but I always just have loved the writing, and I wanted to put a concerted effort to make that my home.
CHANG: Well, I am so curious what you look for as a songwriter when you're choosing what artist you want to write for or collaborate with. Like, you and Sabrina Carpenter are this magical pair. Can you tell me why you think the two of you mesh so well creatively?
ALLEN: I think there's a lot of mutual respect there, and I also just love her dearly, like a sister. And I love how her brain works, and I think she's one of the best storytellers and songwriters I've ever met. And I feel like I get better every time I'm in the room with her. And I always love what we make.
CHANG: Something that I love about all the songs that you've written with Sabrina is the sense of humor in them. Like, you know, they're cheeky. Sometimes they're raunchy. Sometimes they're assertive. But they're still fun.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MANCHILD")
CARPENTER: (Singing) Maybe it's useless, but there's a cuter word for it. I know. Manchild, why you always come running to me?
CHANG: I really wish I could be in the room listening to the two of you trading memories about these guys you've dated, laughing about these sad men while you're coming up with some of the lyrics.
(LAUGHTER)
CHANG: Like, you guys must have the best time.
ALLEN: We do have the best time.
CHANG: Is it like therapy?
ALLEN: It is.
CHANG: (Laughter).
ALLEN: It's like the best kind of therapy. It's honestly like always sitting down with your best friend and just, like, having a laughing, cathartic eight hours of power, really, together. And we also get to work with so many men that we're really fortunate to work with.
CHANG: (Laughter).
ALLEN: Like John Ryan - he's a phenomenal producer - and Jack Antonoff. And to have them...
CHANG: Yes.
ALLEN: ...Be in the room and...
CHANG: Hearing it.
ALLEN: ...Sharing in the laughs and down for the ride and the roller coaster of all the things...
CHANG: Yeah.
ALLEN: ...That will be said in those sessions is a blast.
CHANG: Were there ever any times where you guys wrote something and thought, ooh, maybe that's too far? Maybe...
ALLEN: Oh, a million times.
CHANG: Oh, yeah?
ALLEN: And that's with every artist.
CHANG: (Laughter).
ALLEN: It's like, even if you're not doing something really witty, it's like, there's always something in your brain where, like, maybe that's too weird, that note we just hit, or, maybe that's too pop. Like, there's always...
CHANG: Too personal?
ALLEN: ...Those moments. Yeah. Too deep and too specific or niche. And usually when your little flag goes up of, like, oh, maybe that's pushing it too far...
CHANG: Yeah.
ALLEN: ...It's usually the best part of the song. Like, 9 times out of 10, it's like, that's the thing that people are like, I love that part of that song. So...
CHANG: Oh, my God.
ALLEN: ...I try to chase those.
CHANG: Is there an example where you thought, ooh, this is too far, and now, when you hear it in the song, you're like, oh, I'm so glad...
ALLEN: Oh, my gosh.
CHANG: ...We saved that?
ALLEN: I mean, a million examples. But I even remember, like [expletive] in "Please Please Please." Like...
CHANG: It was the best.
ALLEN: ...We kind of laughed at that, and now that's, like, one of the things that, you know...
CHANG: Everybody latches on.
ALLEN: ...Everybody loves that song.
CHANG: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE")
CARPENTER: (Singing) Heartbreak is one thing. Heartbreak is one thing. My ego's another. Ego's another. I beg you, don't embarrass me, [expletive]. Oh, please, please, please.
CHANG: Is there any time you can remember where you and another artist you're writing with didn't agree on something creatively? And how do you resolve that?
ALLEN: So many times.
CHANG: Yeah?
ALLEN: And there's been so many times when I've been wrong. Like, for instance, Tate and I have talked about this a lot, where...
CHANG: Tate McRae.
ALLEN: Tate McRae with "Greedy," which is one of my favorite songs I've ever...
CHANG: Oh, I love that song.
ALLEN: ...Done with Tate.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GREEDY")
TATE MCRAE: (Singing) He said, are you serious? I've tried, but I can't figure out.
ALLEN: It wasn't really a disagreement, but the day that we wrote that song, I was like, I love that song. It's a great song. And a couple weeks later, she was like, I think the lyric of the chorus is wrong. And that, to me, as a songwriter - usually when somebody's like, we should redo the chorus, I'm like, well, you should just probably write a new song, then 'cause the chorus is, like, the...
CHANG: Yeah.
ALLEN: You know, that's the crux of the song. And so we went back in, and we really edited that song - like, completely changed the concept of the song.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GREEDY")
MCRAE: (Singing) I would want myself. Baby, please believe me. I'll put you through hell just to know me, yeah, yeah.
ALLEN: When it's going to be the song you have to stand on the stage and sing potentially for the rest of your life, I always trust the artist. If they're like, this doesn't feel like me or this doesn't feel right, I'm like, I won't fight that because...
CHANG: In the end, you're writing for their voice.
ALLEN: You're going to be the one that - yeah, I'm writing for...
CHANG: Yeah.
ALLEN: I'm writing with them for them, and they always know their voice best.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GREEDY")
MCRAE: (Vocalizing).
CHANG: It's so fascinating to listen to you explain how you tune in to another artist's voice or sensibilities. But it does make me wonder, like, does your songwriting process change when you're writing for yourself?
ALLEN: Yes, it does. I always - when I start with an artist or writing for another artist, I always start with the chorus first. But when I'm writing for myself - this album that I did last year, I did it out of a place of, like, really wanting to fall deeply back in love with why I started writing music to begin with. And the way I started writing music when I was little was just at the beginning of the song - like, writing it kind of as a poem as I went along, starting with the first word of the song and writing it front to back.
CHANG: Linearly.
ALLEN: Yeah. Very linearly.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PILLAR")
ALLEN: (Singing) This isn't a feeling I can shake. This isn't a spark that I can stomp out on the pavement.
It helped me a lot break out of some of these, like, rules that I've, like, subconsciously put into my brain about how to write a good pop song. It kind of allowed me to break out of that and reapproach a bit. And I think I really needed that. And it allowed me to keep falling back in love with music.
CHANG: I love that to do that - to fall back in love with music - you returned to yourself.
ALLEN: Yeah. It was really nice.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PILLAR")
ALLEN: (Singing) Got my dad's eyes, but I'm my mother's daughter when someone's in trouble.
CHANG: Amy Allen - she is once again up for songwriter of the year at next year's Grammy Awards. Thank you so much for visiting with me at NPR West. I loved talking to you.
ALLEN: Thank you very much for having me.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PILLAR")
ALLEN: (Singing) It all gets built around it. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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