TAMARA KEITH, HOST:
Many people have role models growing up. One of mine was Holly Hunter's character in the 1987 classic "Broadcast News."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BROADCAST NEWS")
HOLLY HUNTER: (As Jane Craig) What? No. You missed them. We only have 10 minutes left. How can you talk to me about parking problems? No, not you'll try - you'll do it. Do it.
KEITH: Hunter plays Jane Craig, a hard charging network TV producer with such a righteous sense of journalism ethics, it kind of wrecks her love life.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BROADCAST NEWS")
HUNTER: (As Jane Craig) You could get fired for things like that.
WILLIAM HURT: (As Tom Grunick) I got promoted for things like that.
HUNTER: (As Jane Craig) Working up tears for a news piece cutaway? You totally crossed the line between what is editable and what is garbage.
HURT: (As Tom Grunick) It's hard not to cross it. They keep moving the little sucker, don't they?
KEITH: There are so many film depictions of women in the workplace, and so much has changed over time that even some of the greatest films in the genre might feel a little dated. But I'm here for it and so are two other witty and intelligent women in my workplace, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producers Kathryn Fink and Jordan-Marie Smith. Hello.
KATHRYN FINK, BYLINE: Hello.
JORDAN-MARIE SMITH, BYLINE: Hi, Tam.
KEITH: And so let me ask each of you if you have any role models of professional women in movies.
SMITH: I personally love Cameron Diaz's character in "The Holiday," Amanda Woods, and Amanda Woods is this successful movie trailer editor.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE HOLIDAY")
HAL DOUGLAS: (As Movie Trailer Narrator) "Deception." Christmas Day.
CAMERON DIAZ: (As Amanda Woods) And that's why they pay me the big bucks.
SMITH: So when I look at Amanda Woods, I see someone who's killing it at work, doing a great job, you know, crossing all the T's, dotting all the I's, and she may just not be that lucky in love. And I can identify with that on a certain scale.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE HOLIDAY")
DIAZ: (As Amanda Woods) You know, I would never cheat on you, not under any conditions.
EDWARD BURNS: (As Ethan) Neither would I, OK? I mean, look at me. I'm down here, sweating like a pig. And look at you. I mean, you're the only woman on the face of the Earth who breaks up with her boyfriend and doesn't even shed a tear?
KEITH: Yeah, what is it about women in workplace movies where their love lives seem to suck?
FINK: Women can't have at all, I think, is one of the big themes of a lot of these movies from the '90s and 2000s. But I have two women I would love to talk about from...
KEITH: Please.
FINK: ...Some of my favorite workplace movies. They're from very different movies, but there's sort of a common thread, which is these two women get a job out of desperation. No one takes them seriously, and then they sort of unexpectedly find themselves in those jobs. So the first one is Erin Brockovich.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ERIN BROCKOVICH")
JULIA ROBERTS: (As Erin Brockovich) You told me things would be fine. They're not. I trusted you.
ALBERT FINNEY: (As Ed Masry) I'm sorry about that. I really am.
ROBERTS: (As Erin Brockovich) I don't need pity. I need a paycheck.
FINK: This is a true story, starring Julia Roberts. She wanted an Oscar for her portrayal of Brockovich, who is a law clerk at an office. She discovers a major cover-up of pollution in a small community from a utility company, and no one takes her seriously. She dresses sort of provocatively. She's mouthy, but she works really hard.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ERIN BROCKOVICH")
ROBERTS: (As Erin Brockovich) These people don't dream about being rich. They dream about being able to watch their kids swim in a pool without worrying that they'll have to have a hysterectomy at the age of 20 like Rosa Diaz (ph), a client of ours, or have their spine deteriorate like Stan Bloom (ph), another client of ours.
FINK: I love that she is her true self in every context. Sometimes that gets her into trouble, but that's also part of her charm and how she ends up accomplishing so much.
KEITH: And you mentioned another movie, so tell me about that.
FINK: The other movie I want to quickly talk about is "Party Girl." This is from 1995, starring Parker Posey. And basically, at the beginning, she is a hot mess. Her character, Mary, just got busted by the cops for organizing an underground rave.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PARTY GIRL")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) For illegal operations of a social club, unlawful sales of liquor without a liquor license, possessions of controlled substance.
FINK: She gets bailed out of jail, needs a job. And so she starts as a library clerk, and she hates this job so much. She is mourning her old life. But one night, she discovers she loves the Dewey Decimal System. She's dancing around in the library, dancing to '90s house music.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PARTY GIRL")
PARKER POSEY: (As Mary) Yes, Mama. I know what's going on. Yes, I do.
FINK: She decides that she has fallen in love with library science, and, you know, she's not the world's best employee. She has some slipups, but she discovers a passion and makes being a librarian look even cooler.
KEITH: And why do you identify with those characters?
FINK: Yeah, I feel like the fact that these women have decided to bring their full selves to their job is part of what makes them so good at it. And in both of these stories, you know, maybe that's a barrier at first, but once people really see what they're made of, the fact that they're not like everyone else around them becomes an asset.
KEITH: So are you saying that this is sort of a change from the '80s and "9 To 5" and also "Broadcast News," which is my favorite, to the '90s, where being mouthy suddenly becomes an asset instead of an impediment.
SMITH: I would say that 100%. I think that you go from having characters like Dolly Parton's secretary for a male chauvinist in "9 To 5."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "9 TO 5")
DABNEY COLEMAN: (As Franklin Hart, Jr.) Look, my hands are tied here. The company needs a man in this position. Clients would rather deal with men when it comes to figures.
SMITH: And then you fast-forward to the 2000s, and you have "The Holiday," Amanda Woods, "How To Lose A Guy In 10 Days." And they're just women that are charging for it, unapologetically, and no one's really, like, stopping them. It's just, like, commonplace that these women are fully facing the world.
FINK: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of really positive examples, as you said, but I also think in the '90s and 2000s, there's this kind of troubling trend, which is this trope of - can women have it all? And oftentimes the answer to that is no. "Devil Wears Prada," which is one of my favorite workplace movies - everyone can relate to having a challenging boss.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE DEVIL WEARS PRADA")
MERYL STREEP: (As Miranda Priestly) So you don't read "Runway"?
ANNE HATHAWAY: (As Andy Sachs) Uh, no.
STREEP: (As Miranda Priestly) And before today, you had never heard of me?
HATHAWAY: (As Andy Sachs) No.
STREEP: (As Miranda Priestly) And you have no style or sense of fashion.
HATHAWAY: (As Andy Sachs) Well, um, I think that depends on what your...
STREEP: (As Miranda Priestly) No, no. That wasn't a question.
FINK: Andy, who's played by Anne Hathaway, gets the job of working at this very renowned fashion magazine. But ultimately, she loses her relationship because of it. So I kind of feel like the answer in that movie is, if you're going to excel in your career, everything else is going to fall by the wayside.
SMITH: I think the main thing that comes out from "Devil Wears Prada" is, like, she never needed the man at all. So I think the question is less, like, can we have everything that we want? And it's more like, can we have everything that we need? So I think my real takeaway from a film like "Devil Wears Prada" is you don't have to have the boyfriend. You can get the job.
KEITH: So I think we've made it to the 2000s, but, you know, it's now 2025. Are there any more recent depictions of women in the workplace that maybe have adjusted to our times?
FINK: Well, I think the women in the workplace genre ended after the 2000s.
KEITH: OK.
FINK: And here's why - I think that there are simply too many movies now about women who have jobs to even classify it this way. You know, working women are not anomalies. Stories about working women are not singular. And their experiences are more likely to mirror men's experiences in the workplace than ever before. So the conflict in these stories often doesn't hinge on the fact that they are women in the workplace. They're just people in the workplace, or the workplace is part of their lives.
SMITH: I think that's a really good point, Kathryn, because I do think TV - I know this is about film, but I do think there are a few TV roles that have more so stood out to me as the beacons of here's who you can be, Jordan, when you grow up. And that's Tina Fey in "30 Rock"...
FINK: Absolutely.
SMITH: ...Which may not be the best thing to actually align myself with. She was quite a hot mess. And there's also Leslie Knope in "Parks And Rec," you know, when you're really dedicated and you're really passionate, and you just want to go for something. But I see all these people on TV shows. I'm not seeing those same people on the big screen. And I think that's something that you were talking about, Kathryn, is just like, where are the women who are just doing their jobs, just living their lives, and it's not tied to the plot of the movie?
KEITH: I think this gets back kind of to where we started, which is the question of - can women have it all? And whether we like it or not, that is a question that we are constantly asked and asking ourselves, which is like, how do you balance it all? Though, I have to say, a film about my work-life balance would be a pretty boring movie.
SMITH: (Laughter) I feel like yours would be really exciting.
KEITH: It is moments of excitement punctuated by children's birthday parties.
SMITH: And that makes an HBO film.
(LAUGHTER)
KEITH: There you go. That was NPR's Jordan-Marie Smith and Kathryn Fink. Thanks for joining us.
SMITH: Thanks, Tam.
FINK: Thanks, Tam.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILLIE EILISH SONG, "ALL THE GOOD GIRLS GO TO HELL") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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